tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7081163247094703505.post5366725043921211065..comments2023-04-07T06:23:59.516-04:00Comments on Shades of Grey: What Would Rabbi Akiva Do? Reflections On Yom Ha'Atzma'ut 5773Shades of Greyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02733139852424935591noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7081163247094703505.post-42429452290285884962013-06-24T22:24:12.920-04:002013-06-24T22:24:12.920-04:00Can you provide a source for your first statement?...Can you provide a source for your first statement? I'm only asking because I'm surprised by it. Which gedolim? <br /><br />I agree that it's appropriate to focus on the positive, but you can't assert that R' Akiva or any other Tanna, Amorah, or anyone aside from today's gedolim would approve or disapprove of the day as it's celebrated today. <br /><br />I'm not sure what you mean by agenda driven or how it's undermined, etc. Can you explain? <br /><br />Addressing a point you made to FG, how do we know what R' Akiva's hashkafic views were on the <i>State</i> of Israel? No one, except Neturei Karta (who don't count lol), are against the idea of being in control of the <i>land</i> of Israel; the problem is specifically with the <i>State</i> of Israel. Lost and Foundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15274876739284480513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7081163247094703505.post-52950873742398741372013-06-24T21:47:55.567-04:002013-06-24T21:47:55.567-04:00There are plenty of Gedolim who acknowledge Yom Ha...There are plenty of Gedolim who acknowledge Yom Ha'aztma'ut, and when the first anniversary arrived, most, if not everyone said Hallel.<br /><br />The point of negative things having occurred and are occurring is does not negate the good - and that's what Rabbi Akiva focused on.<br /><br />Your first point is entirely agenda driven and is undermined by the same reasoning you are trying to use against my position.Shades of Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02733139852424935591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7081163247094703505.post-46953647531136084482013-06-24T21:45:52.945-04:002013-06-24T21:45:52.945-04:00I don't think your MLK Jr parallel works at al...I don't think your MLK Jr parallel works at all. We don't know what he thought about these issues, but there is clear evidence of what Rabbi Akiva's hashkafic views were about the Jewish state in Israel and his perspectives on its rebuilding. I'm not guessing anything - but extrapolating from freely available gemaros.<br /><br />Regarding your first point, the minhagim of what we do for mourning seems to have developed much later on with regard to the crusades etc, and doesn't have as much to do with Rabbi Akiva's students as is often thought.Shades of Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02733139852424935591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7081163247094703505.post-89632021843900298232013-05-09T12:51:44.601-04:002013-05-09T12:51:44.601-04:00I have always been dissatisfied with the reasons g...I have always been dissatisfied with the reasons given for the period of sefira being one of mourning. 12,000 pairs of R. Akiva students died somehow just doesn't seem to cut it. There are many cases of plagues, death and destruction. And the reason for their deaths is even more perplexing - that they didn't honor each other enough. Now that hardly seems like a case deserving of divine capital punishment. <br />If this rational seems somewhat disconcerting see Youtube of Rabbi Sacks for Yom Hazikaron/Yom Haatzmaut that explains sefira from a historical perspective. <br /><br />Igeret Shreera Gaan says they died not of plague but shmadah- persecution.<br />Gemara often refers to unbearable tragedy and terrible occurrences by alluding obliquely (and always conscious of Roman censors). In Yevamot 62B The death of the students are really referring to crushing of bar kochba rebellion by Hadrian. This was the worst tragedy ever up to that time- even worse than destruction of temples. Roman historian Dodio(?) says 580,000 Jews were killed directly and 985 cities, villages destroyed. This was a holocaust. The mourning during this period is an oblique mourning for that holocaust.<br /><br />Lesson Jews learned was that twice (great rebellion in 66 leading to temple destruction 70 and 135 bar kochba)- when faced with insurmountable superior force it doesn't pay to fight and lead our people to destruction. Armed resistance lead to disaster. Baba Kama gemara says from day evil (Hadrian) govt arose, by rights they should decree no Jew get married and have children. So much was the despair. <br /><br />The lose of 12000 pairs of students represent the devastation and almost destruction of Judaism and our people. We mourn their holocaust at this time.<br /><br />Our holocaust was a gamechanger necessitating our shift to active resistance and proactive efforts to secure our rights to exist safely and in our land.<br /><br />smoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07943364710003065265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7081163247094703505.post-86363132969769128222013-05-03T01:37:28.445-04:002013-05-03T01:37:28.445-04:00I agree with FG on this one. A charedi rabbi once ...I agree with FG on this one. A charedi rabbi once asked his class, 'Do you know who the biggest "Zionist" was? The Rambam.' What does that mean? Zionism is an undefined term until it has been defined. It can mean whatever you want it to mean and once it has been given a definition, we can talk about who is and who isn't a Zionist. <br /><br />To say that Rabbi Akiva was a lover of the land and therefore would approve of Yom Ha'atzmaut, and the fact that we have the State of Israel as being a good thing is, forgive me, ridiculous.<br /><br />I'm not going to bother mentioning all the bad things that have happened because we have a State, because undoubtedly you know them all. I believe that it's a wonderful thing, but who am I? There are Gedolim who have been debating exactly that since Israel's inception, and I, for one, am positive that my opinion is as worthless as a clay penny is next to a mountain of gold and diamonds. <br /><br />With all that said, to your last paragraph, Amen!Lost and Foundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15274876739284480513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7081163247094703505.post-2566645120349847692013-04-16T01:23:29.247-04:002013-04-16T01:23:29.247-04:00Wow, really inspiring! Thanks, SoG!Wow, really inspiring! Thanks, SoG!Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12349075191984952033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7081163247094703505.post-67163291674625335962013-04-15T22:53:31.235-04:002013-04-15T22:53:31.235-04:00It takes place during the time that neither those ...It takes place during the time that neither those who hold of the first half, nor those who hold of the last half, do not observe sfira. That cannot be simply dismissed.<br /><br />Also, I hate when people try to figure out what dead people 'would have supported' as if they know, like when folks started talking about how MLKjr would've supported gay rights or gun control. You don't know, no one does, you're just guessing and seeing what you want to see.FrumGeekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13698026647411592329noreply@blogger.com